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Ragnarok 07-18-2016 04:36 PM

Ragnarok's Adventures in CNC II: Big Trouble in Little CNC 2018 UPDATE?
3 Attachment(s)
It's a reboot, not a sequel.


While a full-sized machine (ie. X and Y dimensions are 21" or bigger) is still part of The Big Picture, I've come to the decision that a small cartesian unit dedicated to burning out PCBs is where I really need to start.


Tough crowd. I have a monster custom music workstation/performance controller that I've had in my Bucket List of music gear projects for about 15 years, and things have aligned to a degree where I can finally start getting the thing built. (See my latest posts in the "Between Me an Rangerboy" thread for the details there.) The challenge I have in building the monstrosity is the circuit boards needed for the microcontroller(s), as well as the digital and analog i/o matrices. I have a source on finished, ready-to-populate boards, but the guy is out with no ETA on new stock. Great. :nono: Thus, I must fabricate my own. I want to use a dedicated CNC router for this because I want nothing to do with the traditional "laser printer + ferric oxide etching" DIY process. I live in an area where disposing of the used etch chemicals is impossible (no sewer system - septic only). Additionally I want to do this process in my house.

Having my own PCB rig will allow me to make my own no-longer-in-production open source synthesizers as well, such as the Mutable Instruments Ambika 6-voice analog, plus other electronic projects that I may discover or design on my own.


Jeesh. It's still happening, but during the time of metaphorically putting everything on the shelf my options have become more vast and diverse, and I really don't have the time to build one from plans. The Momus is a great looking tool, but I need something I can pull out of a box, spend no more than a day or three assembling, and then start using the mutha. I've narrowed it down to the Shapeoko 3 XXL and the Stepcraft 2/840. I'll talk more about it in a later post.


There are only two.

1. Size. It has to be able to share space on a table with other electronic equipment in my work area, which is somewhat limited. Since I don't plan on kicking out PCBs that are any bigger than 6" x 4" this isn't a major issue.

2. Cost. This above all other factors limits me the most. Fully outfitted, I can't justify spending more than $600. So no Carbide3D Nomad or Othermill Pro for me, although either one would be the Dream Machine for this purpose.


Chinese 2020 CNC:
Attachment 102196
Definitely the least expensive and easiest to obtain mini CNC machine around. Probably sold under 30 different names in the USA alone. Everything, including the 300W spindle and drop-shipment from China, is about $400. The downside is the quality of everything. The electronics, while cheap and easy to replace, are often total trash. The linear bearings are also often wrecked out of the box as well. The user has to refurbish the thing before they use it the first time, so I'd have to figure in another $200 for the machine's "restoration budget." On the other hand, if properly tuned up it may prove to be a formidable tool. Just not sure I can rationalize risking the $ to find out.

Cyclone PCB Factory, v2.1 or newer:
Attachment 102197
The one that gets me the most excited. 100% open source. Its plastic parts are all 3D printed, and if I go this route I'll either need to buy the parts from a printing service or snag a printer of my own (which I need to do anyway - will start with something Prusa i3 based). The stock spec is approx. 8" x 4" x 1", but I can alter this to anything I like by just changing the length of threaded rods and sliding rods in the construction process. I might also see if I can get short lengths of Acme thread or threaded ball rod and use it instead of standard 8mm threaded rod. I'd also omit the 125W Dremel 3000 for a Chinese 300W 52mm air-cooled spindle. They're quieter and cost the same $. However, I'd probably have to redesign the spindle mount, so maybe the Dremel is okay for the first few weeks of operation.

One of the cool things about this unit is the vacuum connection - that's what the two lengths of surgical tubing is all about. I'd have a household canister vac connected to the junction piece as the CNC runs to limit the amount of copperclad that gets thrown into the air and onto my work surface.

I did find an eBay seller based in the US who sells complete Cyclones (I just get my own spindle and PSU) but he refuses to respond to the couple of simple questions I've asked. Big red flag for me. There's also a retailer Stateside that supposedly has these, but their store is offline. Another red flag. This is why I'm thinking I need to maybe snag a decent 3D printer and churn out the parts myself. That route actually means that this endeavor could equal 3DP + CNC to make the PCBs for my bigdang keyboard, meaning that instead of having a $600 budgetary cap, it may have to be $1,200 to $1,500. Not that I don't need the extra tools, but it's definitely a case of snowballing or feature creep.

Addendum: I just discovered, where I can find "local" 3D printing services and get a quote from them. Therefore, to get my PCB CNC running I don't need to buy a 3D printer first. Sweet. :)

Addendum 2: I got a quote for all of the parts in ABS. Only one print service in the state will do ABS. Thankfully, it's also the highest rated. Less than $75 for all the plastic parts based on the .STL files I uploaded to get the quote. Might do it as soon as mid-August. :yeah:

Openbuild C-Beam:
Attachment 102198
The largest work area of the units in my list of candidates: 13.5" x 11" x 6". Also the most expensive: $610 for the hardware only + NEMA 23 steppers (which are overkill for my needs), $130 for the driver/controller, and $50 for the PSU = $780 before I even get a spindle (which would be a loudassed 2hp production router motor) and cutting bits. The cost and size actually could disqualify it from consideration altogether, so maybe I'll forget this one entirely. If I was spending this kind of money, I'd rather get a standard dimension Shapeoko 3.

Forget the Openbuild unit. It's either the Knockoff knock off or the rig that requires me to get a 3D printer too. Both are small enough that I could put them in a well insulated enclosure to further dampen noise, and I should still have room for my soldering station, testing PSU and regular paper printers.

Ragnarok 08-02-2016 02:03 AM

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Attachment 102360

Details later.

outcastrc 10-15-2016 02:42 AM

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Glad your still plugging away at the CNC side of tooling. It will suck you in and never let go. Looks like you already have a solution that beats any home brew option you could get into... Congrats!

The cyclone is a neat little machine. The one on the right is a friend of mines, it was one of the first things he printed once he got is 3d printer built. He said it's hard to do really fine pcb with it though as it flexes too much, fine for normal stuff though.

I went for a custom one (on the left) that I've designed from scratch as a design project and used spare frame I had lying around. I still have to replace the proto bed with a 1/4" alum one. The bed was made on a Shapoko 3, out of your stated budget but a nice machine for the price. 2 of my buddies in town each bought one.

Ragnarok 10-15-2016 11:20 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Nice. That's good to know about the Cyclone. The boards I'd be making need some very precision traces, so lack of accuracy from tool flexing would definitely be a problem.

Here's what my rig looks like out of the box:

Attachment 102756
Attachment 102757

And the accessories:
Attachment 102758
Attachment 102759

I inherited this from my older brother. They were introduced to the market in 2000, and this one was purchased in '02. New, they were $4,500, and even today they go for about half that on eBay. I got mine pro gratis. I understand that he had replaced it with something larger and more precise. Before he retired it and sent it to me, it spent most of its time being a 3D probe scanner.

It has a work area of 8" x 6", with Y travel of about 2-3/8". It's designed to do very high precision work - far more precise than even my PCBs will need. (I'm positive it uses servos, not steppers.) For now it's been boxed back up, and I really don't know when I'll get around to working with it. Probably after the first of the year. I had planned on getting it up and running at the beginning of September.

outcastrc 10-17-2016 02:59 AM

Looks fantastic! you should be able to produce some fantastic projects with that.

Ragnarok 11-23-2018 10:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Late 2018 Update…'cause I'm a Professional Crastinator:

Still plodding on. I need a USB-to-Serial (DB25) cable that works properly with the MDX-20 because it pre-dates USB. I can either buy the one made by Roland DG for $110, or build one for about $30. I found a couple of articles that show how to make your own, and that's my plan. I don't want to have to use a computer from 2000-2004 to make this work.

I still plan on using this for milling out PCBs (phenolic substrate of course - no FRP because I don't want COPD before I turn 43), and I'll use it until it no longer serves its purpose. I may still build my own PCB-specific CNC rig down the road should I have a need that the Roland can no longer fulfill.

I'll also have to build a sound-dampening enclosure for it. It's brain-meltingly loud. If I feel adventurous, I might replace the spindle entirely.

Still going Shapeoko 3 XL/XXL for the big CNC?
Maybe, maybe not. I've been reviewing the Momus CNC again (rev. 2.1) and there are a lot of things that I like about it. Some changes I'd make if I went Momus:
  • Expand it to 24" x 24" or 30" x 30" because the stock 16" x 16" is just too small.
  • Do a dual-Y axis drive with ballscrews instead of belts.
  • Maybe change to linear bearings?
  • Use Shapeoko 3-style controller/driver board instead of the antiquated controller + drivers the old plans recommend. The Panucatt Gradius M1 Pro GRBL board checks all my requirements.
  • Frickin' lasers! Want this to be a laser engraver/cutter as well so I don't have to make room for a 2nd tool in my work area. (I may be moving my whole work setup into a 1.5 car garage next year, so space will be a premium.) Looking at modifying the mount of a J Tech Photronics 7W setup.
  • Will probably start with the new 1.25HP Bosch VS Colt router, but I'd like a 1000W to 1500W air cooled spindle at some point. If it all works out, I may be able to forego the Colt and go right to the spindle.
It'll be fed G-Code by an inexpensive (less than $800) 15.6" to 21.5" all-in-one PC on an articulating arm. The whole shebang will be on a rolling cart. I plan on doing the same for the MDX machine as well.

Late night edit made in state of anxiety/insomnia/etc.: I found something that might work. All I have to do is build the final platform. It seems like a it's maybe worth the cost to reduce the inconvenience. If anyone thinks this is a good idea, or if it's immensely foolish, I'm all ears. Curious to see what you guys might think.


Attachment 105645

Specs I'd go with: X = 700mm, Y (dual linear units) = 500mm, Z = 250mm (way taller than I want, but I can artificially shorten this with limiter switches; plus if I do a Momus style "tall-wall" enclosure, I can drop the Z axis a bit). It comes to $805 with this config. (It's about $150 more from the same vendor on eBay.)

Supposedly I can "customize" it, and I'll ask if I can get 2Nm/280oz-in or 3Nm/420oz-in steppers instead of the standard 1Nm/140oz-in steppers, as long as the cost isn't more than what it would cost me to just swap them out myself. If I have to do it myself I have a plan for the OEM ones.

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