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  #16  
Old 02-01-2009, 12:11 AM
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I do think that as a whole we need to promote winching over any form of hand of god... No almighty hand helps us in real life, why should we expect it here? There should be incentive to want to use a winch. It saves the day in real life should it not here?

The one free reverse doesn't matter so much to me but I strongly feel that a person should be allowed to let the vehicles gravity help "rock the boat".

If I or my friends want to run comp style rules we would build comp trucks. Building scale trucks, most of us agree that we should try to keep things as close to imitating the real life counterparts as possible... There should be incentives to choose to do things in as scale a manor as possible. Our group tho we don't require it, prefer frame mounted steering and multi speed trannies. Sure it hurts performance, but isn't that what we are striving for?
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  #17  
Old 02-01-2009, 06:31 AM
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I do think that as a whole we need to promote winching over any form of hand of god... No almighty hand helps us in real life, why should we expect it here? There should be incentive to want to use a winch. It saves the day in real life should it not here??
I agree 100%. To me the current rules are very easy to take advatage of. I can touch my vehicle will a small penalty. In real life, I can't have a giant foot come down and function as a ramp or have a giant hand come down and move my truck to a new, easier position. I believe if you have to touch your truck for any reason other than to use the winch, you should be hit with 10 points and moved back to the last cleared gate. The current touch rule is just far too easy to abuse.

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The one free reverse doesn't matter so much to me but I strongly feel that a person should be allowed to let the vehicles gravity help "rock the boat".
That's why we should just allow reverses. I know reverse is a penalty in full-size rock crawling comps, but I don't scale comps are really modeled after that type of comp.

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If I or my friends want to run comp style rules we would build comp trucks. Building scale trucks, most of us agree that we should try to keep things as close to imitating the real life counterparts as possible... There should be incentives to choose to do things in as scale a manor as possible. Our group tho we don't require it, prefer frame mounted steering and multi speed trannies. Sure it hurts performance, but isn't that what we are striving for?
I agree. In the scale points section, we should have points awarded for items such as frame mounted steering and multi-spped trannies.
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Old 02-01-2009, 05:52 PM
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The time limit/winch combo really played out well at the comp today. Super challenging courses (in fact we recycled Course 1 of the 1.9 for the 2.2's to run, and they had a tough time of it.

With five minutes to run, you had to choose your winching opportunities carefully. A couple guys took too long and got a DNF, a couple never made it past the first gate (even with a winch) and one or two walked the course like it was flat.

Most winchers beat those who took repo's. Combine careful winching with an otherwise-clean run and you've got a nice low score.

Agreed winching should be preferred to Hand Of God, but nobody wants to see someone winch their way thru the whole course.

I vote no winch penalty, but add a time limit.
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Old 02-01-2009, 06:16 PM
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So no penalty for winching, but any other type of contact by the driver or any other person results in a penalty.
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Old 02-01-2009, 06:43 PM
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I'm cool with no winch penalty, but the touch penalty needs to be addressed. I still believe all touches, repairs should be treated the same and the truck should be repositioned at the last gate cleared. Under the currentrules, I can attempt a difficult climb with my finger on the hood to keep my truck from flipping. All I get is a 5 pt penalty. Same story if I use my foot as a ramp.
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:09 PM
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I agree 100%. To me the current rules are very easy to take advatage of. I can touch my vehicle will a small penalty. In real life, I can't have a giant foot come down and function as a ramp or have a giant hand come down and move my truck to a new, easier position. I believe if you have to touch your truck for any reason other than to use the winch, you should be hit with 10 points and moved back to the last cleared gate. The current touch rule is just far too easy to abuse.

good lets keep the rules easy.. if I wanted to run comp I would have a comp truck I run scalers because there FUN, I dont care if a guy use his foot or has some fun running in a comp that is what it is all about.. these trucks we build are so different from one another if we make up some strict nazi style scoring set it will remove the fun from scale trucks.... there not all close enough to have strict rules..

That's why we should just allow reverses. I know reverse is a penalty in full-size rock crawling comps, but I don't scale comps are really modeled after that type of comp.
do you follow any forms of real trials competitions?? most of them if not all give penalty's for reverse's.. these rules are very close to quite a few full size style's of competition from rock crawling to trails. the penalty's are all about the same..

and if you got guys holding there truck down and driving up there feet the rules are not the problems neither are penalty's.. its just poor sportsmanship, guys here would never do that kind of thing..
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:43 PM
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Not more than once, anyway
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:01 PM
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How about we loose the reposition rule and just settle on touches of any kind (aside from winch use) being ruled as 10 points.
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Old 02-02-2009, 05:10 AM
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do you follow any forms of real trials competitions??
No, I don't follow trials competition. There is zero real coverage. Back in the day, I did, however, enter 4X4 competitions. Not every type of comp penalized for using reverse. That became more common when rock crawling comps took off. And, it's really not the end of the world for me. I just believed that is was worth discussing.



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and if you got guys holding there truck down and driving up there feet the rules are not the problems neither are penalty's.. its just poor sportsmanship, guys here would never do that kind of thing..
In my opinion, if we want to have a decent set of national rules, it is our job to take care of any clear loopholes. I personally think the whole idea of a resposition is flawed. You should have to go back to the last gate. It's fair for everyone. In real, full-size comps, when the crane comes out and lifts your rig--you're done.
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  #25  
Old 02-02-2009, 10:47 AM
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How about we loose the reposition rule and just settle on touches of any kind (aside from winch use) being ruled as 10 points.
you cant loose the repo rule.. if a truck falls from the course into a hole it has to be repo'ed.. we use a liberal repo here if a guy does not have a winch on his truck we will after some time trying the gate move him past the gate he is stuck on...

going back to the last gate like mattH is suggesting is great for comp trucks, but for these trucks there is to much difference in the trucks. if someone couldnt get the gate moving them back wont help them along the trail.. 5pts is fair for all touch related stuff a repo needs to be worth 10 since it can have a advantage..

what is the benefit to making the penalty higher??? so the final score will be higher?? that does not make any sense. all the touch penaltys are the same gate, touch, ETC.. except for the one with the biggest benefit you dont have to make the numerical number higher to solve this issue..
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:09 PM
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Well, a lot of what I'm hearing is the majority of the "points system" is agreeable to most of you. It seems the only bone of contention is the reposition versus touch versus winching. So what I ask each of you that cares about this rule is to write up the way you think those three aspects should be covered. We'll then evaluate those and work from there. Rather than argue to minute points of each, lets work up a full rule and then discuss it as a whole.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:26 PM
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My proposal is below. I believe this is the most fair and easiest to judge. I do not believe we should allow for touches and/or repositions to be used to clear obstacles that our vehicles can't.

Rollover: Points are assessed when a vehicle rolls over and does not right itself or can not be righted without touching. Winching is allowed without incurring a penalty. All gates are still live while on a gated course. I took out the part about having to drive back into position.

Touch: Any physical contact with the vehicle while on course. If a repair must be made then the vehicle may be touched. After any sort of touch (intentional or unintentional) or repair, the vehicle must be placed at the last cleared gate. The vehicle must have at least the rear axle at the gate. No touch penalty or repositioning to the last cleared gate will be incurred when setting up a winch or tow straps as long as the vehicle is not repositioned or moved during the "hook up" process.

Reposition: Penalty is incurred when the vehicle must be physically moved. After any reposition, the vehicle must be placed at the last cleared gate. The vehicle must have at least the rear axle at the gate.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:34 PM
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My thoughts on this...

Quote:
Points:
Scale Class: All rigs in the Scale class will start off with 0 points and points will be deducted during the competitions. The object is complete the course without incurring points. Point deductions are listed below. There is no time limit and no maximum point limit. Speed is rewarded.

Reverse + 1 point
Rollover + 5 points
Gate + 5 points
Touch + 5 points
Reposition + 10 points
Rescue - 5 points
Time: - 5 points
DNF + 40 points + 5 points per gate not completed
Reverse: Using the throttle to reverse course. Non powered roll backs are allowed. During gated courses each driver is allowed 1 reverse per gate without penalty.

Rollover: Points are assessed when a vehicle rolls over and does not right itself or can not be righted without touching. Winching is allowed without incurring a penalty. Once righted the vehicle must be driven back into position. All gates are still live while on a gated course.

Gate: Failure to pass all 4 wheels through a gate or touching a gate with any part of the vehicle. Winching through a gate is allowed.

Touch: Any brief physical contact with the vehicle while on course lasting no longer then a second If a repair must be made then the vehicle maybe touched, however the vehicle must be placed back into the position it was in prior to repair. No touch penalty will be incurred when setting up a winch or tow straps as long as the vehicle is not repositioned or moved.

Reposition: Penalty is incurred when the vehicle must be physically moved. This includes picking up the vehicle or a rescue by another vehicle. If a reposition requires the driver to touch the vehicle then a touch penalty is also incurred. Repositions must be placed between the area the vehicle is removed from and the previous passed gate.

Winch: No penalty when using timed courses. +1 per foot winched on non timed courses.

Rescue: Using another vehicle to free a vehicle on course. The rescue vehicle will only be allowed during runs in which the buddy system is in place. The rescuer will receive the bonus points while the rescued will incur a reposition penalty.

Time: A 5:00 minute (or 1 minute per gate) time limit can be applied per run, this is not required and will be at the discretion of those judging the courses.

DNF: If a vehicle is unable to complete the course regardless of reason a DNF will be assessed. If a DNF is assessed then they will be scored with +40 points add to their current point total plus 5 points for every gate not completed.

Buddy System: When the buddy system is in use 2 vehicles will run the course, the leading vehicle is the one being scored during that run. The “buddy” is the follower and will not be scored unless a rescue is requested. After the course has been completed the drivers will reverse order and the “buddy” now becomes the leader. Driving order will be decided by a coin flip. Buddy pairing will also be decided by chance. Method of determination will be decided on site based on number of participants.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:35 PM
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Points:
Scale Class: All rigs in the Scale class will start off with 0 points and points will be deducted during the competitions. The object is complete the course without incurring points. Point deductions are listed below. There is no time limit and no maximum point limit. Speed is rewarded.

Reverse + 1 point
Rollover + 5 points
Gate + 5 points
Touch + 5 points
winching +1 (only applys to non timed course)
Reposition + 10 points
Rescue - 5 points
Time: - 5 points
DNF + 40 points + 5 points per gate not completed
Reverse: Using the throttle to reverse course. Non powered roll backs are allowed.

Rollover: Points are assessed when a vehicle rolls over and does not right itself or can not be righted without touching. Winching is allowed without incurring a penalty. Once righted the vehicle must be driven back into position. All gates are still live while on a gated course.

Gate: Failure to pass all 4 wheels through a gate or touching a gate with any part of the vehicle. Winching through a gate is allowed.

Touch: Any physical contact with the vehicle while on course. If a repair must be made then the vehicle maybe touched, however the vehicle must be placed back into the position it was in prior to repair. No touch penalty will be incurred when setting up a winch or tow straps as long as the vehicle is not repositioned or moved. *any touching of a vehicle to result in a performance gain will result in a DNF(EX. holding down on vehicle to gain traction)

Reposition: Penalty is incurred when the vehicle must be physically moved. This includes picking up the vehicle or a rescue by another vehicle.

Winch: No penalty when using timed courses. +1 per gate on non timed courses.

Rescue: Using another vehicle to free a vehicle on course. The rescue vehicle will only be allowed during runs in which the buddy system is in place. The rescuer will receive the bonus points while the rescued will incur a reposition penalty.

Time: A time limit can be applied per run, the time will be based upon the course..

DNF: If a vehicle is unable to complete the course regardless of reason a DNF will be assessed. If a DNF is assessed then they will be scored with +40 points add to their current point total plus 5 points for every gate not completed.

Buddy System: When the buddy system is in use 2 vehicles will run the course, the leading vehicle is the one being scored during that run. The “buddy” is the follower and will not be scored unless a rescue is requested. After the course has been completed the drivers will reverse order and the “buddy” now becomes the leader. Driving order will be decided by a coin flip. Buddy pairing will also be decided by chance. Method of determination will be decided on site based on number of participants.
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Last edited by sloppy : 02-03-2009 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:28 PM
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Reposition: Penalty is incurred when the vehicle must be physically moved. This includes picking up the vehicle or a rescue by another vehicle. If a reposition requires the driver to touch the vehicle then a touch penalty is also incurred. Repositions must be placed between the area the vehicle is removed from and the previous passed gate. No forward progress may occur as a result of a reposition. (added)

So, clarify this. The rule states that if the driver touches the vehicle, it's 5 points on top of the 10 for a repo. If a judge, spectator or innocent bystander does the repo, it's only 10 points rather than 15?

The 5 points for a touch is fine. If you've got no winch and need a kick to get out of a bog, 5 points is a good rule.
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